Question Number: 22667

Law 12 - Fouls and Misconduct 12/22/2009

RE: Rec Under 13

Joe Rogan of Tampa, FL USA asks...

This is a question regarding the age appropriateness of cards.

During a U-12 rec game, a player who the Grey team whispers to his teammate very loudly 'This ref sucks' while awaiting a corner for the other team. I told him I heard that, shook my head at him, and notified his coach. I didn't show a card however for dissent.

No more than 3 min later, just after a water break, this same player goes to make a tackle on an opposing player. However, when making the tackle he did a jumping two-footed tackle straight at the opposing player. Luckily he didn't make direct contact. I gave him a yellow card for unsporting behavior, but told him very sternly if he did that if he did that in U-14 or above it was a straight red card for serious foul play.

I wondering what you guys would have done for both cases. Remember this is U-12 rec and it was the 2nd weekend of the season (3rd game).

Answer provided by Referee Tom Stagliano

Referee Joe

Nation wide, in the USA, in many states, the youth and high school sports authorities are asking that Referees take an active role in making certain that sportsmanship is enforced and taught. They are asking that referees at these levels be Instructors as well as 'exam proctors'.

Given that, and the age group that you specify (I believe all soccer at U14 and younger is some form of instructional soccer), in the first case I would have had a word with the player as you did, but then I would have walked him over to the coach and said: 'Coach this player is working through a mental injury and needs to sit with you and talk it through. You may sub for this player now, and he may reenter the game when you both believe he is ready to play soccer'. All soccer at U14 and younger is or should be unlimited substitutions.

Later, if this player then goes on to take that 'jumping two-footed tackle' on an opponent, for which in an U16 game or older you would have instantly shown the Red Card, do this. Blow the whistle, make sure you Add Time, cull the player from the crowd, have a stern word with the player, and then take the player back over to the coach. 'Coach, this player is through for this game and you need to further explain to this player the seriousness of what he just did in that violent tackle. You may sub at this time.'
It is recreational soccer. There are probably seven kids sitting on the bench just waiting for a chance to get into that U12 game. If the team plays short-handed, those bench-sitters are robbed of playing time. No one cares who wins or loses this game. It is a learning experience. Let the game continue at full strength but without that player who chose to play violently. That player and his team mates still learn a lesson.

This goes to the heart of Refereeing and Instructing to assist players at these young ages. However, an 11 year old, in 5th grade, should be able to comprehend the seriousness of his actions, and the loss of his playing time is part of the lesson.

My opinion only, and I have done this for games at this age level.

All the best
- Stag

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Answer provided by Referee Joe McHugh

Hi Referee Rogan
I personally would have done what you did in the game. Yes the player could have been cautioned for his 'dissent' before the corner and then he could have dismissed him for his 2nd yellow for the challenge. Indeed with contact this would have been a red card type challenge and at open age the reaction of the opponents would have been hostile to this type of challenge without contact. I have dismissed for no contact in this type of challenge at open age.
You do not mention the attitude of the player after the caution and I guess he did not come to your attention again. This is always the litmus test of cautioning.
Ref Stagliano's method has merit as well and it depends on the attitude of the coaches, the type of game and the relationships. I have used it on potential dismissals at age U14 and below where I have told coaches that the player needs to be substituted otherwise he/she is running the risk of being dismissed for the next challenge/dissent etc. A good coach will recognise this behaviour/attitude and he/she will deal with it appropriately.
If it is very competitive then the Laws of the Game apply and I will not be asking coaches to do something that they may decline.

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Answer provided by Referee Michelle Maloney

You were the referee at the field, and what you decided to do was within your powers and duties as a referee.

Ref Stagliano and McHugh have some cogent advice which you may find useful. I would make the point that there is no age or skill level at which cards are inappropriate. The younger or less skilled they are, the more leeway and instruction we are likely to provide first, but please don't think that cards cannot or should not be used at any level.

Sometimes, we cannot avoid the requirements of the Laws, regardless of the age or skill level of the participants. A two footed tackle where a player left his feet is very serious, at any level because it can hurt someone badly. I'll wager if you'd sent him off, he would remember very clearly what not to do ever again, even at the young age of 11/12.

Sending him off needs to be done for the good of the game, and for the good of the player and his opponents. If you choose to go the gentle route listed by my colleagues, that is fine, point is made and he can no longer injure anyone in that game. Remember though there will be times when you must get tough.

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Answer provided by Referee Richard Dawson

I must be a crotchety old geezer, sigh! :o( if we are 11 aside regulation match in competitive play then al the laws apply. I can understand in a town recreational fun league to not use cards as extensively but if we are select team, inter city travel, provincial or state play I have much less inhibitions. While I personally believe it would be better for the youth under 14 to not play so structured, especially at the lower ages we do not always need a sledge hammer to drive in a tack, cards are a tool at our disposal if and when required!

The fact that we are adults, if we try to intimidate youth solely by presence then as a referee we could come across as a bit of a bully. Not that being strict or no nonsense should be regarded in the same light but kids perceive discipline and separate right and wrong not only in a reality sense of cause and effect but emotional as in feel shame or guilt. To foster respect and influence in a positive way our demeanour on the field must set the example. Even at early ages youth seem to understand what a bully is and does! Basically those in authority get lumped in with those who might be stronger, faster, tougher, and meaner and louder that get to tell others what to do or push others around! Those that take that attitude to the pitch need to know there are consequences that are more than a tongue wag!

It is obvious, to me anyways, that being cautioned or sent off fails to change behaviour in far too many players when you consider at the elite level the same players become notorious for constantly pushing that envelope. Instead they learn to mask or disguise it, do it when the referee is not looking, practise feigning injury among other deceitful practises or simply get cautioned or sent off, time and time again.

Lippy or rude children are in my opinion, a product of environment enhanced by a lack of consequences! Pandering to their needs with no or inadequate discipline has created the garbage that passes for acceptable behaviour both on and away from the pitch! Adults tend to poke a lot of fun at each others expense, make obscene or inappropriate comments or act the same in full public view at the pitch, in the tabloids, on TV and within our daily lives away from the pitch! Youth are sponges and they soak it all up, realizing what we say to do, is not what we practise! Fair Play and respect are not things you can turn on if they are not programmed within to be found!


Warning coaches that their players are pushing the limits of acceptable behaviour can work at times; however, other coaches are furious if you transgress their tactical boundaries. Try to engage a coach in the pregame to respect his wishes when it comes to how he wants his team to be treated. Offer civility and respect for the position of a coach as any adult entrusted with the care and welfare of children has my attention as a step above the ordinary. If his actions or words give a different impression or enhance the perception throughout the match adjust the thinking accordingly! If you can work with the coaches to effect the needed behavioural corrections or lessons learned I am not against saying, "Coach if he were to sit and contemplate his misgivings say until the end of the half the opportunity for your other players to play is enhanced as opposed to sending him to the showers reducing your numbers by one." ! The issue is the tactical choices are the coach's responsibility! If you mange the attitudes to control the rampant behaviour of one team is it fair to the other if they could benefit from their disciplined play? Neutral officials can still teach good etiquette, explain fair and foul and seek to be approachable! Achieving a balance of preventive and corrective actions ,remember the two teams are to be treated equally!
Cheers


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Answer provided by Referee Gary Voshol

Well, you *could* try to play Let's Make a Deal with the coach. 'Coach, this player will not be playing again today. We can do it the easy way or we can do it the hard way. The easy way is for you to sub him out. The hard way is for me to send him off. Which will it be?'

Before saying that you have to know whether or not it will work. That will depend on the relationship referees and coaches have in the league. Do they work together for the players' benefit?

Still, as Ref Maloney mentions, there are some situations where a send-off is necessary, no matter the age. The first red card I showed was to a U10 'select' player who decided to stomp on his opponent. Sorry, you get the rest of this game and the whole of the next to think about why you shouldn't have done that.

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Answer provided by Referee Jason Wright

Before I offer my answer, I would like to preface it by pointing out that in Australia, most youth/junior matches are played under the strict instructions of no stoppage time to be added on, under any circumstances. This is because there is often only a 5-10min break between matches, so there simply isn't time to stop my watch.

This means that taking the time to go and have a chat to the coach as an alternative means of player management is going to waste a significant amount of time, which I don't like doing if I can't help it (of course, sometimes taking significant amounts of time to respond to an incident is necessary, depending on the incident). I've never been one for talking to the coach over a player misbehaving - I have a few reasons for that, and to some extent it also comes down to personal choice on how to referee. Not saying you shouldn't - in fact I encourage it - simply that I don't often take this approach. Occasionally I might at halftime. One of my reasons is that I tend to think that if the coach really cared about the discipline of the player, he'd be doing something about it.

My first caution was to an U/10 player for repeatedly shouting to distract an opponent - I think I pulled him aside and warned him 4 times (which is 3 times too many), and eventually cautioned him. Would the 'soft' approach of asking the coach to do something about it have had the same effect? Maybe, maybe not. Some of the club's supporters told me that was probably the best thing I could've done for the player, as giving him the 'real' punishment of a card means he'll probably never do it again (and also looks far more serious if his parents also decide to discipline him!).

I've given a few red cards to U/12 players, mostly for DOGSO (which, as we all know, is mandatory).

There is one game that stands out in my mind, and it forever altered my view of this age group. U/12 A grade...so parks level, but the games do have a league ladder and a finals series (so there is some competitiveness to it). One particular incident involved the keeper putting his arm across the throat of an opponent to hold him back. Easy red card for serious foul play, but two players were dissenting as I set up the penalty, being real smart alecks. I tried to have a word, they persisted, so I cautioned both. I can't remember if I gave any more cards, but all through the match I noticed behaviour from these very young, low-level players that was reminiscent of professional men:-

- they were foulling and sledging their opponents in what appeared to be a considered attempt to undermine them psychologically, rather than the typical fouls at this age
-There was a lot of dissent directed at myself, but it was the borderline dissent that was designed to get under my skin more than show clear dissent, as such was more difficult to manage
-The late challenges, I firmly believe were often quite cynical from players that knew exactly what they were doing.

I'll freely admit that I lost control of this match in the regard that I had no respect from the players. I simply had no idea how to handle these players (partly because this was the first problem game I had involving such young players). Later in the season I refereed this team again, and booked one of the same players for dissent - worst part was, as I was showing the card he waved me off and walked away. In hindsight, I should have shown him the second yellow card for this dissent. Talking to the coach would have done nothing, I believe, as players only act this way from habit and training (I didn't want to be too harsh on the kids so I let him get away with it - later the home team supporters, whom I know, were very surprised that I didn't caution him for that, particularly as they know I normally don't tolerate disesnt). With this team in particular, the parents were appallingly behaved with no respect towards myself. The players don't have a chance of growing up to be good sports, but this game made me realise that even at U/12 level, it's quite possible to lose control of the match.

But it's very rare to have a team, or even players, like this. Normally I'm quite sympathetic to these players and I concur with my colleagues that at this age and even a little above, the referee can take on a significant education role. But the referee needs to have a feel for when it's appropriate to take this approach, and when it would be allowing a dirty or negative player to get away with too much. Like most things in refereeing, this is largely experience and feeling that guides this.

I have also seen an U/11 match that was completely out of control, but it was blatant that this team was coached in a fashion that had no respect for the laws of the game, although this team was from another country and from what I understand, that's simply how the game is played there. However, the players were also smart enough to see where the line was drawn - while the first caution was heavily overdue, showing it immediately made the players behave (by that point I think I had seen cause for about 7 cautions and 2 red cards. This is just the stuff that was deliberate!).

So back to the original scenario - what would I have done? Probably fairly similar to what you did, Joe. While referees can make the mistake of hearing too much - and you'll find with older players it's sometimes better to pretend you haven't heard comments, I find myself far less tolerant of dissent at a young age (I'm also far less tolerant of blatantly unsporting behaviour, such as shirt pulling, aggression and deliberate foulling). In regards to the original comment, I may have simply said 'keep it to yourself', or I may have pulled him aside and had a stern word with him (if I do that, then I have little choice but to caution should that player dissent further).

I wouldn't have spoken to the coach for the reasons I said above - and my colleagues have also given fantastic advice regarding involving the coach in these matters.

Regarding the later challenge, I may have issued a straight red for that. It would depend on the force used, how close it was to the player, the direction it came from (directly from front is far more dangerous than from the side), and whether I felt there was any malice involved. These are some of the things I would have taken into consideration.

I also show leniency for some things for young players, and I may well let them off with a warning for some things that older players would get off for. For some things, however, it's the opposite. While most players are still learning their feet, this is also a rather developmental period in their behaviour and I believe that if we alow them to do what they like on the field (remember, the same player could do the same thing every week, knowing that the ref will warn him but not card him) then we're doing them a disservice - as well as ourselves (after all, who gets to deal with him when he's a dirty 16, 18, or 34 year old? We do!). By all means show leniency if you think it's appropriate, but don't forget that there's still a line and sometimes you will have to show the red card at this age. I'm certainly not saying you did the wrong thing, but from the tone of your post I have a suspicion you may have let his age influence your decision a little too much.

As with all matches, refereeing is about striking up a delicate balance - junior and youth matches simply have different things to take into consideration than older youth and adult matches.

While it may seem good to make a deal with a coach for him to pull the player for the rest of the match, what do you do if the coach then puts that player back on? You can't show him the red card as this would be in breach of the laws of the game - when you start operating outside of the typical framework of the laws of the game, you need to remain aware that you could be backing yourself into a hole and making life difficult for yourself if things don't go according to plan. I don't believe you should be making a deal when a player has committed a sending off action, but it may help to suggest to a coach that a player's actions are likely to earn them a card if they're pushing the line and you're not convinced they're going to stay on the right side of the line for much longer. This is a quick, 5 second comment that you can make next time you're near the coach, if you like. I find this particularly effective in managing persistent infringement (upon writing this post I remembered that I do briefly approach the coach at my next convenience just to say a line or two, from time to time, but I don't hold the game up for it if I can help it).

I will point out that I don't care what week of the season it is - nor do the laws of the game. This player could have been playing for years, for all you know. If you allow players to get away with things early in the season, how do you justify booking or sending off the same player for the same incident later in the year?

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Answer provided by Referee Keith Contarino

I used to work a lot of U12 Rec games and rarely showed any cards, but even at this age/skill level, the LOTG still apply. Certain things can be ignored and others cannot. Regardless of how you decide to punish or not punish misconduct, you have to be within Law. I have no problem with you not issuing a caution for the comment made by the player in question. But, one of the things I simply will not ignore is a violent action with the potential of injuring an opponent. A two footed studs up tackle is serious foul play or violent conduct depending on if a play for the ball is actually made. Players learn the Laws best by being punished for serious transgressions. Were it me, this kid would be sent off immediately. I wouldn't leave it up to the coach nor would I have a talk with him. The LOTG do not give the referee the authority to tell a coach that a player will not be allowed to play anymore in the game unless he sends the player off officially for one of the 7 reasons listed in Law 12 and shows the red card

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