Question Number: 19152

Law 11 - Offside 5/20/2008

RE: Under 17

Chris of Vancouver, Canada asks...

This question is a follow up to question 19102

Thanks for Referees Voshol and Contarino's comments clarifying that a simple touch of the ball by a player triggers offside for that player's team.

Was also intrigued by Referee Dawson's "black hole" scenario, and would like to clarify a couple of points, where both team have members simultaneously offside.

Tell me if I've got it right. Ball in Blue's half. A blue defender kicks the ball. It rebounds off a Red team member. This puts (a) any red team members behind the ball and the second last blue player offside; and (b) any blue team members offside if they were in Red's half AND behind the second last red player at the time of the original blue kick, since the rebound off the red player did not reset the offside.

Have I understood the unlikely black hole scenario correctly? (I'm sure it happens on occasion. I think I've seen it myself.)

I take it that these offside blue players become onside as soon as they come back into their own half and can challenge for/play the ball even if offside was not reset for them, since they cannot be offside in their own half. Question: If a ball in the above scenario that came off the blue kick and red rebound were to then travel into the red half, could the offside blue players run back into their own half, and then turn around and give chase for the ball?

Also, regarding the red players, no matter where the rebound off the red player goes, the offside red players would not be able to play it, regardless of whether it went forward to them, or backward, (providing it didn't go into their own half). They could not engage for instance,in a foot race for the ball, (even though the ball went backwards away from them), until offside was reset for them.

That leads to the next (and final question). Offside is reset for these red players (a) if a blue team player gets control of the ball (b) if one of their teammates touches it (which will put them offside again or make them onside, depending on their new position).

But is it reset if they move to an onside postion, and yet no one has touched the ball? For instance, the blue defender kicks the ball and it rebounds off Red Player A and goes laterally toward the western side line. Red Player B is behind the ball and the second last blue player, and thus offside. But because he is way out on the west corner of the field he is actually closest to the ball. He gives chase towards the ball (for him backwards), and as he approaches the ball, he now becomes in an onside position because he has put a second red player (motionless and way over on the eastern side of the field) in front of him. May he now play the ball?


Thx again for your assistance and encouraging words. (I have recently been certified as a referee and have a few games under my belt. Your website has been of invaluable assistance in mentally running scenarios, and contributed to my confidence in making the right calls on the field, since I have been able to have no doubts that they were correct).

Answer provided by Referee Keith Contarino

Try not to use words like behind and in front of when describing position. Blue plays the ball so any blue player that is in the attacking half and nearer the opponents goal than both the ball and the next to last opponent would be in offside position and guilty of offside if they become actively involved in play. The deflection off Red does not alter this. Now, since the ball has touched a Red player, any Red player in his attacking half and nearer the opponent's goal than both the ball and the next to last opponent would also be in offside position and guilty of an offside infraction if they become involved in play. I'm having a hard time trying to figure out where these players are in relation to the ball since you don't tell us where the ball is. My gut feeling is the ball's location is going to negate the possibility of both teams having offside players.

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Answer provided by Referee Chuck Fleischer

Actually Law 11 makes the statement ", at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his team,"

The touch may be as little as "one hair on the head of". That is the definition of touches, big little touches means having made contact with.

You'll find as the years wear on it is generally understood when one side is constrained by the restrictions of Law 11 the other side isn't. Further, any player so constrained will not be able to run to a position that is not offside [i.e. his own half] and expect to participate without penalty.

Regards,

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Answer provided by Referee Richard Dawson

Just remember while the laws clarify when the offside restriction is applied they are rather vague on when the offside restriction is lifted.

If we have a red player #12 closer to the opposing blue goal line than the 2nd last blue player, say he is late coming back as the blue players push well out to the midline. The ball is played forward into the red half by a blue player when blue player #13 at that time is closer to the opposing red goal line than the 2nd last red player just out wide on the wing. The ball is hammered off the point of the knee of a red player and it deflects back out into the blue half towards the wing area. Now it is possible our late returning red player #12 go for that ball just as our blue #13 runs back into his own half to also chase it down. Never mind what the other 20 players might do. This asteroid hitting the earth event has impact at some point. ;o).

The red player #12 and blue player #13 are both restricted.

The blue restriction was first achieved when the blue kick occurred, the red restriction occurred when the ball deflected off the red knee.

Nothing has yet occurred that lifts either restriction.

You can not be JUDGED to be offside if you are in your own half when the ball is played BUT that is NOT where the blue player WAS! When offside is JUDGED the blue player was inside the red half closer to the opposing goal line than the second last red opponent when the blue team mate played the ball.

Involvement is the second part of a two phase situation. The restart is always where offside POSITION was judged to have first occurred ( phase one)even though involvement (phase two) occurs later or in a different spot on the field including your own half.

One of the more difficult things for a referee to grasp is the initial POSITION determines the restart location but the INVOLVEMENT could be at a far different location and time including your own half as in this case. The fact is players and ball move into new positions on the field AFTER the initial freeze frame picture where the offside restriction is FIRST put in place. The INVOLVEMENT which is the completion of the infringement can occur elsewhere and at a later time so you need to remember the restart goes BACK to the first position of freeze frame.

NOTHING a player does on his own, will rescind offside restrictions.

His running from an offside position into what looks onside is meaningless he is still restricted from involvement.

Think about an onside player who runs in behind the 2nd last defender closer to the opposing goal to play a through ball, he might look offside positioned but that again meaningless as that is not where he was WHEN the offside freeze frame position occurred only where he went!

For offside restrictions to disappear
(1)-the opposition must regain clear uncontested controlled ball possession
(2)-there must be a NEW team-mate touch of the ball where he is no longer offside positioned in that the ball or the second last opponent is now closer to the opposing goal line then him or he is inside his own half at THIS time of the new touch (remember players and ball are always moving and at each touch a new phase begins)
(3)-the ball must go out of play( this will be a new touch of the ball by his team to reset or if the opposing team's restart the have controlled possession of the ball and if one of the three restarts of goal kick corner or throw in offside exemption occurs.

Blue player returning to his own half does NOT reset and the red touch was a deflection and it does NOT reset the blue player's involvement restriction. Red player was lazy and as a result that red knee deflection of the ball is STILL a touch, he was offside positioned at the touch thus offside restrictions are currently in effect.

The thing is as referee since both players are restricted and if they are both moving to the ball what call are you going to make when they get there? Will you wait to see who touches the ball? What if there will be a collision? Do you favor one over the other? The blue was offside first but that restart takes you way back into the red half. Is the red offside an easier sell? Don't you just love making decisions? ;o)




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