Question Number: 15091

Law 12 - Fouls and Misconduct 3/31/2007

RE: Rec Adult

Mike Lilley of Plano, Texas USA asks...

This question is a follow up to question 14576

Not a question, but a comment that might help people understand deliberate v. intentional.

As a lawyer, we deal often with drunk drivers and related offenses. Many of those offenses require intent. Someone who is drunk may or may not have that intent -- it is impossible to tell. But, the law has evolved to state, in effect, that the act of getting drunk was a deliberate act, so, the resulting actions have the requisite intent. Applied to soccer, if player A makes a play ont he ball (attempted control with chest is fairly common), that action was deliberate, so when the ball hits the arm or hand, the requisite intent exists. The original deliberate action directly caused the foul, even though the actual contact was not intentional.

Am I understanding thsi correctly?

Now, a somewhat related question: If a player keeps his arm at his side, but purposely allows a ball coming directly from the side to hit his arm, is this a foul? I am speaking of a situation whereby the ball would hit his torso if he had no arms, but instead hits the arm that is plastered 'deliberately' to the torso.

Thanks.

Answer provided by Referee Chuck Fleischer

Fine, but overly complex -- all the referee need know is did he or did he not play the ball with his hand or arm. Did he or did he not let the ball hit his hand or arm. That's all necessary for foul play to have occurred. If he let it hit or used his hand or arm to play the ball that equals foul play. We do not judge, we observe and, based on our experience, we come to a conclusion. Deliberate or not.

Regards,

Regards,

Answer provided by Referee Keith Contarino

You're thinking like a lawyer not a referee. Ok. The player makes a legal deliberate play on the ball with his chest. After the play, the ball inadvertantly touches his arm. How is this deliberately handling the ball? Your second scenario is spot on. A player is guilty of deliberately handling the ball if he purposely leaves his arm/hand in a position to allow the ball to hit it. When mentoring young referees I tell them that if a ball is avoidable and you as the referee think the player could have chosen to avoid the ball but let it hit his arm/hand anyway, it's a foul.

Answer provided by Referee Richard Dawson

Hi Mike,
no doubt many accidents are unintentional but still the result of a deliberate act. You mention a very difficult subject matter for me and I have very strong opinions on that matter! While I get the analogy I differ greatly on the consequences. As far as DUI I am amazed at how soft we are on the punishment. How you can kill or maim people and not be held accountable for murder or attempted is beyond me. I equate driving drunk with randomly shooting a loaded 45 out the window at passers by once every 10 seconds. As far as I am concerned you should at least become responsible for the welfare of the family of the person you murder!

In football we hold the act of handles the ball deliberately as a foul with occasional misconduct of USB caution show a yellow or DOGSO send off and show the red card. World of difference but yes the logic behind the thinking similar only NOT in the need to act as drinking and driving is a choice that you do have a say in.

Cheers

Answer provided by Referee Gary Voshol

This is the kind of thinking I have about deliberate vs. intentional. Several times after I've blown for a foul, the player pops up with, "But, ref, I didn't mean to!" I think, "Of course you didn't mean to foul, but it happened because of your deliberate actions. If I thought you meant it, we'd be looking at a card." Although I don't often get a good chance to tell them that.

Now if you perform a good chest trap and the ball bounces into your arm on the way out, I'll be evaluating that more closely for deliberateness. It's easy to say you deliberately put your arm in a place where it could get hit. It's less obvious if you had no opportunity to get your arm out of the way off a rebound.