Question Number: 16712

League Specific 9/16/2007

RE: Rec Under 12

Marianne of Valley Springs, CA USA asks...

This question is a follow up to question 16669

Follow up response to my question #16669
I thought referees would be interested in the following email I received from our Soccer Leagues "Coach Coordinator". I would appreciate any response regarding this mentality of penalizing a coach for having a winning team, teaching soccer players "not to play at your full potential", and believing that a coach is not demonstrating good sportsmanship if his players have more than a 5 point goal differential?

Hello Fellow Coaches,

We seem to still have a problem with some of the policies of CYSL, particularly with the 5 goal rule.

I have had several complaints from coaches about other coaches not sticking to the RULE and not showing very good sportsmanship.

It was discussed (in great detail) at the last board meeting and the board has implemented some new rules adding to the existing 5 goal rule. From this point on the following changes will apply and must be followed without question.

1) If your team goes beyond the 5 goal separation, on the 6th goal the coach will be "YELLOW CARDED"
2) If your team scores again, on the 7th goal you will be "RED CARDED" and not be able to attend your next game.
3) Continuous violations to this rule and any others will result in the coach not being asked to coach next year.
4) All teams will play down to make the games equal. Example: If the other team only has 10 players show up at the game, you will play with 10 players. If they show up with 8 or 9 players you will be required to play with the same.

Everyone needs to remember that this is a Recreation League and not a Competitive League. We want to make this experience great for ALL the kids.

A good example of the violation to the 5 goal rule was just last week when one team decided that they needed to BEAT/SLAUGHTER the other team by a score of eleven (11) to one (1) and the other team only had 8 players and the other coach played a full 11 players.

This is so ridiculous I can't even describe how the board feels about this. This behavior has got to stop!

We know that these violations do not apply to most of the coaches and we thank you for trying your best in following the rules of the league.

Sorry for such a bummer letter but we need to fix this now.

Thanks and have a great week.

Matt D.
Coach Coordinator CYSL

Answer provided by Referee Gary Voshol

This is a league policy and not a referee matter. However I see that they are involving the referees by inventing new Yellow and Red Card offenses. Not to mention the fact that the Laws of the Game say that only players and substitutes may be shown cards, not team officials.

Taking off my ref jersey and assuming my role as a rec board member, I understand the problem. We do our best to get teams with similar ability levels matched up in games. Sometimes things happen to screw that up - like when one good team went into the select league, and another team in that age group liked the "cool" name of the team that left and adopted it for their own, without telling the game scheduler that the teams weren't the same. Teams learn the most by playing against closely matched teams. They don't learn much by being on the bottom of a huge losing score, except that they might learn that they are losers. The winning team doesn't learn much in the shellacking either.

Our league has an arbitrary 8-goal limit. A game I reffed last week was 8-1 at the half, the 1 coming in the final minutes. As I walked over to the sideline to get my water and rest, I mentioned to the coach that his challenge in the 2nd half would be to play soccer without running up the score. His solution was to call out, all second half, "Don't score, don't score." I'm sure that didn't do anything for the esteem of the other team.

If the league wants to institute a goal limit, then they have to teach the coaches techniques to avoid running up the score, but still play in a meaningful way. That might involve removing one player from the field, but that has the side effect of cutting playing time. The team should be instructed to practice on skills that could help them in future games. For example, 10 passes before any shot on goal; shots only with the left (non-dominate) foot; scoring only on headers after the ball is crossed by a teammate; etc. Players should be moved to unfamiliar positions on the team. Jimmy usually plays defense and hasn't scored all season? move him to striker. Coaches should also be told to start their alterations earlier. If you go up 3-0 in the first 12 minutes, it's pretty obvious that you will be getting to the goal limit soon. Start your changes now, so that you can still play meaningful soccer, not keep-away.

I also have problems with the requirement that a team must play in equal numbers to their opponents. Your team couldn't get all their players to come to the game, so now players on my team get less game time?

We now return you to your regular referee questions.

Answer provided by Referee Chuck Fleischer

The referee's decisions regarding facts connected with play are final. If the league wants to usurp my authority then they can look elsewhere for a referee. When faced with teams who try to kill off an opponent with a lopsided score I always changed my "foul recognition" and use of advantage. It was transparent and I was never caught doing it. The side with the most goals COULD NOT use any foul play, if they did there was a whistle. At that point they had to rely on skill alone and usually that was enough to curtail their ability to score goals. When they were the recipient of foul play I played off and advantage and let things run. Their skills at riding fouls were tested. Son of a gun if the score didn't get run up AND I didn't need a league to tell me to caution or send-off a coach for teaching his team better skills.

Political correctness rules in Valley Springs, CA I fear.

Regards,

Answer provided by Referee Keith Contarino

Personally, I find all these "slaughter rules" counter productive. The mentality that abounds is that kids should never get their feelings hurt by getting soundly defeated. What you end up with, in my opinion, is worse. What fun is it to have another team purposely NOT try to score. You have one team chasing the ball all over the field because the better team is not allowed to score. I am NOT in favor of running up scores but if a coach rotates her players and doesn't rub it in, what more can you ask? Getting beat is part of life and a lesson kids need to learn.

Answer provided by Referee Richard Dawson

Losing a match by lopsided scores is a fact of life. It is mitigated by rearranging kids in a community league so that the players are dispersed in graded fashion where the greater skilled or stronger players are scattered throughout. Yet competition teams where players are chosen for skill and to play at specified levels often allows these kids an opportunity to play on the same team instead of against each other! I have chosen teams based on tryouts and pulled 17 from a pool of 149 potential kids who all wanted to play! These kids had rarely played with each other as they were against each other in the town league. Is it fair that we chose some and not others? Is it fair that we choose a starting 11 and they get more play time then the other 6? I absolutely despise mercy rules that FAIL to account for why the game is played and not take the appropriate measures to fix it after a certain duration. When you play a better team and get thumped 25 to 0 it is surprising when you play and the next game score is 20 to 1 the pride that can exist in the accomplishment of scoring that single goal as a team! Resiliency in youth is pandered to these misguided ideals that being outscored is somehow makes them losers!
Absolute hogwash!.
It is the thinking that the score reflects the effort of those playing.
Some kids are simply faster, stronger more skilled and as a fact to shield a child from the horror of being scored upon is an invention of those who have no grasp of reality and a sad existence in their former life of being picked on and called a loser or forced to endure an overbearing coach or team mates.

Setting up leagues we can try to account for disparity and work to allow parity but we can not legislate it! We can encourage those on to higher levels when it is apparent or ask if might disperse the kids in a equal manner throughout the teams! The kids deserve an opportunity to WORK as a team and a good coach recognizes his team is superior can have them work on fundamentals of tactical applications where they disperse wide and try to cross to team mates who might not get opportunity to score or only headers or must one touch the ball along. The opponents can be frustrated as the ball is kept from them or they can appreciate the level of skill displayed and LEARN from it! Perhaps if the league is so hopped on this 5 goal difference the two teams could be requested if they want to merge and play for fun and practice? Mind you as a team losing or not I might want to GET better and possibly play with my friends not give up just because the other team is more skilled!

My colleague Ref Contarino correctly points out it is in the CONDUCT of the kids scoring and the coach?s attitude in how he fields his or her players that make the game fair minded or small minded. In a tournament as a kid I recall being beat 6 to 3 by a team and they were brutal in rubbing our nose in that fact and we were rubbish and trash talk. We were beat by another team 10 to 0 and we were in awe of their skill and composure. Guess who we cheered when the one team played the other?

If you have the ability to restructure a team in a league then consider grading the players each year and sort them into relatively equal powers. Do not keep scores or standings in a participation only league! I absolute abhor the removal of players so we are 11 versus 10,9 ,8,7 then 6 and even down to 5 who keep the ball away and score still? How good is that for self esteem of their 11 opponents?

It matters little the score if while being beaten the kids that score say to you, ?You guys suck!? It is attitude above all else that sets the table for ego deflation and resentment.. If I get beat 20 to 0 because my opponents are skilled or I watch them in despair as they play keep away leading 5 to zero after the first 6 minutes which do you think as a child I will be happier about? If you are out coached out hustled out skilled then you learn to work harder, smarter and faster to achieve that level. Soccer is a great sport in that we place kids accordingly based on how well they do in house leagues or a bronze, silver or gold or rating with levels of premier,1, 2 or 3 etc.. in each setting a tier of abilities as they become recognized!

Too often concerned parents make decisions based on incomplete information and fail to recognize the problem is NEVER the score but in the conduct of the participants!
Winning soccer as results or winning soccer as a teaching game is in the mentality and ethical conduct of those responsible as much as the ability to bulge the netting!.

While it can suck being ridden roughshod and leisurely scored upon, the despair and pain of a one goal loss could outweighs it all by a ton!
Cheers.
PS
I do not know if it will help but please feel free to share our thoughts with your league perhaps they can come up with alternate solutions befitting the kids who play!!

The following questions were asked as a follow up to the above question...

See Question: 16750