Question Number: 16129

Kicks From The Penalty mark 7/26/2007

RE: youth Under 19

Bob of Southern, NH USA asks...

This question is a follow up to question 16070

A related topic came up in a discussion around this topic. Basically the rules say you reduce to equate to equalize the player counts at the end of the game. they also say, as indicated here, once KFTM start you do not reduce for injuries, ejections etc.

The question became, what about between the game ending and before the KFTM start? Say you have blown the game over, while doing the organizing etc, for KFTM, but before they start, someone leaves the game for any variety of reasons.

Would you reduce to equate because KFTM haven't started, or would you not because you already did (if needed) when the game ended?

Answer provided by Referee Richard Dawson

Hi Bob,
this is being discussed vigorously in the back channels of at least three different national organizations. USSF position seems to indicate that upon the final whistle of the match it is the START of kicks from the penalty mark which only is done to arrive at a decision it is not part of the match result. Thus nothing that occurs AFTER the final whistle effects reduce to equate!

As a non USSF referee I have reservations as to whether this MUST be or is simply a CHOSEN position.

I raised the possibility of an incident occurring before the whistle but only obvious after the whistle. If the referee or AR or 4th saw a collision and either a send off, caution or injury was present but play continues then a final whistle goes if there is a send off or removal for injury as a result of a witnessed event prior to the whistle blowing sufficent to reduce to equate.

In my OWN opinion I think it is!

If we examine why the reduce to equate was introduced it makes no sense to excuse behavior simply because it occurs before the first kick and the end of the match. I have learned however that occasionally the laws are nonsense as much as reasonable in certain situations.
As a USSF referee you are bound by the way they perceive things at this moment. Changes could occur later and I hope they do!

I believe a referee can accept that events during a match render a player unable to participate at KFTPM.

I can see if a player tripped on his run up and turned an ankle as clearly something that happened AFTER the match ended. Same again for a dissent or abuse situation because one team feels like orchastrating some funnies ! However, I believe 100% a referee has the right and duty to reduce to equate in law based on his acceptance of the condition and playing status of those on the field at the end of the match while they gather at centre circle!

The key element in my opinion is does a referee have discretion after ending a match of determining that the legal players on the field can have a legitimate reason not to participate in kftpm and is the opposition obligated to have players that may well looking forward to being part of the circle excluded from it because the opponents lay claim to have additional personal so injured as to be unable to participate?

I agree 100% the indeterminate time after a blown whistle and a gathering of the players at centre circle to hash out who goes if the sides ended in uneven numbers or whether we can adjust an even amount of players into a new uneven amount and not be required to reduce to equate is questionable in practice if not against the laws as they now stand.

I do take exception though at the 11 aside issue "If both teams finish with 11, there is no reduction." If a referee determines an injury or send off event was an incident near the end of play with only the outcome being clear after the match has ended why is it not permissible to reduce to equate based on knowledge before a match ended?

Here are some obscure examples of reduce to equate where both teams finished with 11 at the whistle but the teams were reduced to 10 aside at the taking of the KFTPM .

Hot Hot day, game ends players are exhausted and cramping one player vomits and falls unconscious after the final whistle. Obviously he can not participate in the KFTPM BUT is the other team FORCED to reduce to equate or is it not considered at all?

A collision, advantage played, shot on goal stopped, match ended. In collision defender dislocated ankle. Obviously he can not effectively participate in the KFTPM BUT is the other team FORCED to reduce to equate or is it not considered at all?

Player # 3 receives a second caution but is not sent off. Match ends AR points out to referee #3 has two cautions he can or can not participate in the KFTPM? Obviously he should not participate in the KFTPM BUT is the other team FORCED to reduce to equate or is it not considered at all?

Team playing, substitute limit reached! A player is injured near the end of the match but receives treatment and knowing no one can replace tries to hobble about the final minute. A referee can see his right foot is favored. When the match ends he tells his captain and referee that it I am done. Obviously he can not participate effectively in the KFTPM BUT is the other team FORCED to reduce to equate or is it not considered at all?

If a match ends and the KFTPM now begin at that moment then although the talk about who goes will not yet take place consider the folowing
Match ends in a flurry of action with 11 blue players versus 9 red players aside but after whistle sounded to end the match immediately an altercation breaks out between blue and red. The action is so severe that two blue and 1 red player are sent off before the KFTPM while the players were still on the field but after the match ended but before the players were grouped in the circle and the captain of blue had said to referee which two players were not going to participate. Obviously the sent off players can not participate in the KFTPM BUT red was already short two players and blue was going to be requested to reduce to equate now will blue still be reduced by two as they were 11 versus 9 at the final whistle so in reality blue has 7 players to take the kicks and red has 8?

Cheers

Answer provided by Referee MrRef

There has been a discussion traveling around the Internet concerning possible incorrect advice offered by our question number 14004 of 1 October 2006. We have taken the time to verify what we said, after consulting US Soccer, nearly a year ago. Because this question deals with a particular phase of the match in which the referee needs to choose a goal where KFTPM will be taken and reduce to equate, if necessary there is a period of time when reasonable action may be taken. We have always believed KFTPM have NOT yet begun when the full time whistle sounds. We have always questioned the statement KFTPM begin when the final whistle sounds. It has been our contention that the match has entered another phase and that phase is KFTPM. Further we have believed, and still believe, I might add, that until the first kick is taken the instructions given by FIFA and US Soccer are sufficiently nebulous that the referee may make an educated decision based on what he discovers in the period of time from the full time whistle until the first kick.

There has been no error made in the advice given. The advice given is essentially a statement of US Soccer policy and, though it comes from an unofficial source, it was then and remains today correct as stated. Those still believing KFTPM begin at the full time whistle need only read the Laws of the Game and see there can be no reduce to equate after KFTPM begin. It has been and remains our contention that this is a Catch 22. We are told to do something that is impossible to do under the Laws of the Game. To successfully reduce to equate there must be some period of time in which it?s done. That period of time is between the end of the match and the first kick.

Answer provided by Referee Chuck Fleischer

30 July 2007. Following discussions at the highest levels of US Soccer it has been determined by Alfred Kleinaitis, Manager of Referee Development and Education, the fact a player has been injured during a competition and is unable to carry on during kicks from the penalty mark does not enter into reduce to equate. The injured player may leave the field so his injury may be tended to but the kicks from the mark will proceed with an unequal number of players. Ed.