Question Number: 19947

Other 9/14/2008

RE: Rec, Select Under 12

Joe Griego of Bishop, CA USA asks...

This question is a follow up to question 19903

So, is it really impossible to apologize for accusing someone of being dense? I certainly didn't think his original question was dense, nor have several others. And, the previous poster even asked if it was possible that referee training instills the inability to admit when we make mistakes. Your responses seem to indicate that this is, indeed, the case.

There've been plenty of responses from the referees, but not one was, 'I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by calling you a name.'

I expect at least that much from my eight-year-old daughter. Competent adults should adhere to a more stringent standard, don't you think?

I'm afraid from where I sit, you're digging yourselves deeper with every insistent response that you are right, and he was wrong. It seems to me that you do a disservice when a site with the domain name of 'asktheref' freely allows the responders to use insulting language when a question gets asked in a respectful and thoughtful manner.

So here's a hypothetical question for you. Let's say a youth keeper is whistled for a DOGSO just outside the penalty area, and the referee mistakenly awards a penalty kick, rather than the DFK from the location of the infraction. She responds to the referee with the witty verbal retort, 'You're kidding, right? That was outside the area. Are you dense, or what?'

What is the call?

You folks are great, and have helped me out quite a bit. Reading the many questions have clarified many wrong assumptions I have had about the game. I can understand that answering the questions many times can get tiresome.

But, using that reasoning as an excuse is logically inconsistent with your own values, and I doubt you'd allow use of such logic in a game. If a player calls another kid a name during a match, they get a verbal warning and a caution for USB if it continues. They get no sympathy if they claim, 'I'm really tired, and besides that kid keeps fouling me and never gets called for it!' Being weary is understandable, but it no excuse for lack of good manners, or gentlemanly behavior.

It doesn't cost a dime to be courteous. And if being called discourteous insults you, I'm apologize.

Joe Griego
Bishop, CA

Answer provided by Referee Richard Dawson

Thanks we are not great but we are ok and we do enjoy helping others to find their way on the pitch. But understand that answering the questions many times is not really tiresome as the only really *DENSE* question is one unasked. I get that you are equating dense with stupid even though that is not the same thing in my opinion being a bit thick as opposed to an idiot is much different. I looked over my responses and see no ill will or fun poked at the original poster's expence from my perspective. Whether my colleagues have offended or care not to think they have offended I gather some thought he was lax in not reading available material.
I do appreciate your point and sentiment but as to the original poster response he was quite happy with all but one response and as I have tried in vain so it seems to make apparent each individual on this site answers only to themselves.

You state
"I'm afraid from where I sit, you're digging yourselves deeper with every insistent response that you are right, and he was wrong" I fail to see how this is a wrong and right issue that WE become I by not publicly jumping down the throat of a colleague? It is a personal choice one that you find flawed but any referee with a thick skin could just hit his head with the heel of his hand an go Damn ! why can't I have seen that. Expectations are hard to live up too and as to what cost we place on honesty and value truth, morality itself is compromised by perception or belief

If Michelle or any panel member wishes to apologize that is her/their business. I do not apologize for others. The right of free speech is inherent in both your right to feel as you do and for me to feel as I do, for the original poster to feel as he does etc etc....
I take full responsibility for what I say and what I do.
If I felt I needed to apologize I would.
I have no issues with admitting right or wrong assuming I can tell them apart but to belabor this further serves what purpose?
Do you rule out the hard work, time and dedication of all those who diligently try to do the right thing because you perceive someone did something wrong?

You will note that *WE* do not delete responses that are critical or disagree from public scrutiny because although opinions are the life force of the referees they are not always correct and even in disagreement there are things to be learned even by *I*.

What is the call?
I'd thank her for pointing out I was an idiot as that restart clearly indicates I would be to do so. I 'd offer to buy her a beer after the match for saving me from a gross misaplication of law and a protest followed by a replay and a discipline inquistion notwithstanding but she is too young for that so I would refrain from my over inflated ego at being comeuppance by a youth and do the right thing admit I was wrong ask her MOM or DAD could I have her enrolled in the next referee course. As a coach seen referees do that what you describe and in those cases *dense* is not the word I used

Cheers

Answer provided by Referee Keith Contarino

Joe, I'm sorry if anything I've ever said on this site has offended you. Are you happy? No one on this site is immune from making mistakes and everyone on this site will and has admitted to making mistakes. The question that brought this all up dealt with the questioner clearly reading only the portion of the Law he wanted and seemed to be insistent that the rest of the Law was immaterial. Hence came the response, 'are you just being dense', or something similar, which, in my humble opinion, was warranted.
Now to your question: well if I was about to award a pk for a handling infraction by the keeper that was clearly outside the penalty area and the keeper asked me if I was being dense, I'd tell no I was just having a brain fart, thank her for making myself look like an idiot and get on with the game and the DFK from the point of infraction. I can also tell you that you probably don't believe this but were I to make such a mistake I'd ignore the insulting word dense. That said, there are some other things she could have said that would have brought out a caution or a send off even if she was right. Dense doesn't bother me. I know I can be dense. Just don't insult my kids, my wife, my parents, my siblings, or my dog

Answer provided by Referee Gary Voshol

When someone is told something multiple times by several sources and still doesn't accept it, that is being dense, is it not?

I would have no problem with the keeper questioning my call for a PK if she was indeed right, that it clearly happened outside the PA. However her question of me being dense would not be appropriate unless we had several exchanges of (me):'PK' (her):'Outside the box' (me):'Doesn't matter, PK', lather, rinse, repeat. Yes, then I would be being dense. Granted if I was that dense, all her protests probably wouldn't save me from making the error, she'd be cautioned for dissent and sent off if she continued, and the whole game would go in the toilet. And the team would win the protest on both the game results and the player's misconduct. That's what dense does.