Question Number: 24427

Kicks From The Penalty mark 12/16/2010

RE: rec Adult

Martin Wade of santa cruz , california usa asks...

Thankyou for your response to my question ref #24413 regarding womens world cup victory However i was expecting a more insightful answer.The term Quibble is to put it mildly gives me the impression im wasting my time asking the question in the first place,we are not quibbling.Also the your reference to a timeline is irrelavent and i've never heard it asked again obviously you have so please give me the Q ref #.Well you cannot so i will continue.Ok you said womens world cup governing body is not fifa.Come on are you serious,you are wrong.i will be very impressed if you guys post this.Ok now back to the original question i would love an intelligent answer from you as to how come the ref allowed this ridiculous injustice to go on 1 kick o.k 2 kicks ok let the ref off that but kicks 3,4,5 and son on is impossible to miss unless his eyes were closed.DO YOU AGREE?Y.or N....kudos to the absolute brilliant sportsmanship to the China team for the way they dealt with being slighted here.

Answer provided by Referee Joe McHugh

Hi Martin
The reason a question is not on the site is probably because the site had just started in 1999 and no one asked or knew that this excellent site was available. I'm sure other older sites have this question and indeed many that allow gripes to be aired will have covered it. This site is about providing answers to questions and advice to referees.
Also who said that the governing body was not FIFA? I've read all the answers and that is not stated anywhere.
Anyway there are weekly examples of encroachment at penalties which rarely result in a retake. Italians could ask why was the penalty save by Jerzy Dudek for Liverpool in the 2005 CL Final against AC Milan was allowed to stand or his movement off the line for another penalty that was kicked wide allowed? Only the referee Manuel Mejuto Gonz?lez from Spain can say why. Did any AC Milan player question the referee's decision at the time and they showed excellent sportsmanship or had it anything to do with FIFA/UEFA?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk8xuHZOtJ0
On the original question I deliberately only answered the point of Law in your question, which you considered as not insightful. The reason I focused on the law was that the only person that can answer the question as to why the missed penalty by China was allowed to stand is the referee Ms Nicole Petignat on the day. Movement off the line by the goalkeeper on a scored penalty is rarely if ever challenged at all levels and I would not have expected Ms Petignat to act any differently here on the 4 scored penalties. When was the last time you saw a goalkeeper cautioned/challenged for encroachment on a scored penalty in kicks from the penalty mark? If the penalty is missed the required sanction is that the kick is retaken.
Yes another referee on another day could award retakes on similar missed penalties for encroachment such as the ones witnessed in the WC and CL. That though is not the answer you want as I detect your questioning is more about the politics of football than the game itself.

Answer provided by Referee Keith Contarino

First, I re-read every answer. None of us even remotely suggested FIFA is not the governing body of the Women's World Cup. No one. What we said was FIFA doesn't award or take away games based on what you or anyone else may think are bad judgement calls. Only if the LOTG are misapplied ( a professional referee lost his badge for awarding a goal kick instead of an IDFK at a PK) is a game going to be protested and the results negated. If the referee had awarded a penalty kick to China because Scurry deliberately handled the ball outside her penalty area and China scored and won, the US would have had a very good case that the Laws were misapplied and the results overturned.
You basically want to punish both Brianna Scurry and the entire US team for a single judgement call by the referee. Did you watch how the US men were treated in the recent WC? Landon Donovan was literally bludgeoned every time he was near the penalty area and 3 times in one game was recklessly taken down while inside the opposing penalty area. 3 PKs and 3 yellow cards easily could have been given and should have. But no one is suggesting the results of the games should be overturned and at least to me, these judgement calls had far more effect on the games then Scurry's leaving her line early.
You also fail to understand that the LOTG explicitly cover what happens when Law 14 (and KFTPM) is infringed. At a KFTPM if the keeper leaves her line after the referee signals for the kick but before the kick is taken AND A GOAL IS SCORED, the referee is to do absolutely NOTHING. A keeper is never going to be cautioned for anything if she is continually allowing goals to be scored. By definition, her leaving her line early and a goal is scored anyway the infringement had no bearing on the match and is trifling. If a goal is not scored, then IF in the OPINION OF THE REFEREE (not the opinion of FIFA) the infringement was not trifling, the kick is retaken. No yellow card, no red card. Simply a retake. If the keeper did this time after time and caused kicks to be retaken, it is possible, but very unlikely, a caution may be issued.
So the only judgement call at issue is the one time Scurry did block a kick. Did she leave early? Sure she did. But the referee there at that match on that day decided her leaving early did not affect the play. And why should she have? Both keepers were leaving early but until that shot nobody was stopping anything.
You also have to realize in 1999 referees were routinely allowing 5-10 players to infringe at Pks and keepers all over the world routinely were allowed a yard or more no questions asked. It was not until 2006 or so that referees were told to try to stop this but it still goes on to some degree.
Are you really suggesting that Brianna Scurry should have been punished for allowing 4 out of 5 shots to score?
The Chinese team wasn't slighted. You keep ignoring that they scored FOUR times out of five. How were they slighted? I agree China was and is a class act but you make it sound like they were robbed by one call you disagree with. That certainly is quibbling.
It was a terrific game. Each team blew scoring opportunities. Both keepers made extraordinary saves. The Chinese team kept Mia Hamm from scoring and the US shut Sun down. After 120 minutes of play it was 0-0. Somebody had to lose.

But the entire tone of both your questions is accusatory and bitter. You do not seem to want an answer so much as you want justification for what appears to me to be an incredible amount of personal animosity and anger.

Here's a short intelligent answer to your question: the referee continued to allow Brianna Scurry to leave her line early because the LOTG say to do nothing if a goal is scored. Furthermore, at that time, it was common to allow goalkeepers a great deal of latitude as to what constituted infringement.

Hope this helps and hope your venting on our site will allow you to let go of something that happened 11 years ago and move on

Answer provided by Referee Gene Nagy

Martin, nobody said that FIFA is not the governing body who organizes the women's FIFA World Cup event. What we did say and I quote: 'FIFA did not award the WC to the USA women's team'. Read that very carefully Martin. It occurred to MrRef that you felt that FIFA out and out arranged the cup to be won by a particular team and went ahead and awarded the cup, i.e. the trophy itself to USA. Not even by inference can you construe this to mean that FIFA is NOT the governing body. Not sure how we can explain it more explicitly...
As far as the goalie moving is concerned, it seems to me that you still cannot grasp that if the goalie moves and goal is scored, the goal stands. It is in the Laws of the Game. It does NOT mean that the referee had his (her) eyes closed as you state.
So what the whole thing then boils down to is the third kick by China where Scurry moved early and blocked the shot. Theoretically it should have been a retake. However in 1999 and in 2010 that decision is made by a visual by the referee with an Assistant Referee standing on the goal line at the edge of the goal area and their decision is final. There is no appeal. Frankly it was quite common and more or less continues to be common to NOT call a slightly early movement.
This is about as intelligent as I can get.
Now Martin, try to get some sleep; eleven years of sleepless nights are enough!