Question Number: 29776

Mechanics 10/3/2015

RE: Intermediate Under 13

Phil of Tarzana, CA United States asks...

This question is a follow up to question 29771

I know you've answered this question before. But I still have problems with it in practice. I referee 11-12 year olds for AYSO mainly.

If there's a foul in the penalty area (say a trip), there's an immediate cry from the spectators. Now, I know you're supposed to ignore spectators (parents), but if I don't blow the whistle or signal advantage, the parents become quite vocal, because they assume I've missed the call.

If I signal advantage, there's no spectator problem. That makes it much easier. I have a few seconds to either go back to the call (penalty kick) or wait wirh a goal (rare) or go back to the foul. If I don't signal advantage, I can still do that, but everyone thinks I'm giving in to the spectators. I've even had the opposing coach ask why I gave in 'to them' since I didn't signal advantage.

Do you think in these situations (AYSO youth), it's still better to wait without signalling advantage? Honestly, I don't see why not signalling advantage in the penalty area is bsd.

Perhaps you can explain the what problems signalling advantage would cause.

Thanks agin.

Answer provided by Referee Richard Dawson

Hi Phil,
What if they miss? What if they hit the crossbar? What if the keeper saves? What if they commit a foul before the ball crosses the goal line? The non signal is a just a (wait and see moment or two) it allows ANY result you want. IF you signal advantage and the keeper saves, they miss or they foul, according to the LOTG, the advantage was realized and squandered, you do not go back and IF you do the other team will be upset claiming you gave their opposition extra opportunity to score. Two bites of the apples as they say! The premise is inside the PA we get a goal or we get a PK! The reality of the timing of play within the PA is the reaction to a obvious collision be it a foul or not one or both sides will be irate and screaming for their pound of flesh. Also in u-12 the practical use of advantage is one that is not as easily accepted as it is in the higher skill /age brackets. Even the referee's understanding and learning when and how to anticipate a true advantage, is going through a learning process. The reactionary antics of players and spectators is one of emotion. It is difficult not to detach oneself from an outcome as the heart is on the sleeve or tip of the iceberg is the most easily seen or felt! Attitude and body language, consistency and effort are the tangibles those looking on can visibly project and respect but to think they will not WANT to point out they saw something they perceive you MUST see is not a reality based concept.
I was taught advantage was signalled with a shout of ..."ADVANTAGE!"... and arm sweeping motion. This indicates, I saw it, quells dissent and am now waiting to see if I ...NEED... to stop! Once ...SATISFIED.. the advantage was realized, I dropped the arms and shouted, "PLAY ON!"

If this was followed exactly the same, once I add ...play on... I have said to all we are NOT going back. Without saying anything I can!

I have awarded quality advantages to players who will on the odd occasion pick up the ball or stop and look at me with sheepish eyes unused to the use of advantage, so they learn as well. I can easily recall many incidents, a DH, the girl reached up, ball off the hands at the outer edge of the penalty area, literally demented screams from the opposing coaches, as the ball falls right at foot of a player totally free in on the goal. She was responding to the coaches, screaming to pick the ball up, even as I had clearly yelled, Advantage!, and was arm sweeping, whispering in her ear, to go ahead, just take it in and have a go. She did, got her first goal, ever, mom was ecstatic, she was ecstatic! However, even some of her team mates were yelling at her and me as they were still convinced by the coaches she should have stopped and picked the ball up , still peeved because they felt their big free kick kicker was a better opportunity continued to beak off . They were rewarded with a goal, but felt I had made a mistake in not letting their thunder leg McGurk take a free kick from 3 yards outside the far corner of the PA. Little kids start in on me because the are totally convinced they must follow their coaches lead that I had missed this blatant handling. SIGH!

Same idea but this time a foul inside the penalty area, coach does a complete spin of disbelief, hands to face, horrific caricature, oh my Gawd, how could I not have seen that, look, and starts beaking off as I hold the whistle after a clear foul in the PA but watched as the ball rolled right to the incoming attacker from off to the side and scores a sweet right footed blast upper corner. The coach is now ...SILENT... head down. I responded with, so you want the PK now or was the goal good enough? He nods and waves ok ok I overreacted .

Here solid advantages, leads to a good goals, but at the youth level I find coaches so want those fouls. If you are finding the emotional and verbal dissent is too impacting at the youth level, then do not play advantage! Use the hard whistles, firm point, quick to the spot, eliminate confrontation, resume play! I certainly do not recommend it but if it helps with the match management how can one argue? We are all teachers, even as experience teaches us! A referee learning to apply correct advantages, needs to make their mistakes as well. Cheers

Answer provided by Referee Jason Wright

Hi Phil,

This is a problem you'll still come across in adults - if you don't say anything because you're waiting for an advantage, they'll probably think you've missed it. In Australia we're strictly instructed to not signal advantage until after we're certain that we're not going to go back - so to prevent problems, sometimes we'll shout 'I've seen it!' or 'keep playing!' in that brief period before we declare advantage.

You'll always be accused of just responding to the spectators - that's because spectators can usually make a decision faster as they have much, much less to consider (even if you take a potential advantage out of the equation). And when they've made their decision, it's faster to just shout than it is to raise a whistle and blow it. Making quick decisions when possible and otherwise communicating with players will help with this.

Answer provided by Referee Joe McHugh

Hi Phil
Penalties are big decisions in games. Many are clear cut with no potential for advantage.
Now my advice is to ignore the baggage that comes from the award of penalty kicks or not. One side is not happy so they will look to moan about the call or non call. That just goes with the territory and its is not a popularity contest
Now on advantage inside the penalty area many times the timing is so short between the foul and the chance that it really does not make any difference. The issue with signalling advantage is that if it does not accrue that players will then complain about bringing it back as they will believe that advantage has been realised. In general a penalty kick is usually the best advantage so unless there is an immediate goal scoring opportunity it is never beneficial to not go straight to the PK after a short wait and see. Really the only time that a poor advantage decision is made is when the ball finishes up resting in the back of the net and the referee has called the foul. I cannot ever recall a team complaining to me about the award of a penalty kick. I do recall in a game where I was an AR when a goal was scored and the referee had awarded a PK. The *scoring* team wanted the goal yet not much complaint particularly when the PK was scored and the defender dismissed.
Now I believe a referee can use body language to communicate the delayed whistle efficiently, e.g.
# perhaps by remaining a bit more static in posture than usual during the wait-and-see process.
# by then turning, moving and pointing towards the place of the original infringement and
# by verbally explaining to the players of the wait for a possible advantage that did not develop.