Question Number: 30102

League Specific 2/13/2016

RE: competive league Adult

peter dickinson of sandbach, cheshire United Kingdom asks...

This question is a follow up to question 30097

Regarding the under 21 abandoned match I referred to and an incorrect ban on our captain. One of our players was guilty which all accept. A decision has been made to accept the overall ban even for our captain for reasons of not rocking the boat.

It would appear that the FA are not as approachable as you make out and the ban is not made after discussion with all parties but is based entirely on the ref's report. This is wrong. The report as I am informed was inaccurate in more than one instance and was a single paragraph. It would appear that the bureaucracy condemns our captain and the lesson he is being taught is that he should not get involved even in restraining his team. Surely this is wrong. I would value your opinion with respect to the laws of the game in this respect and who should pay the fine.

Answer provided by Referee Joe McHugh

Hi Peter
One of the challenges facing any player getting involved in restraining is that it can escalate into something more. Also it is one thing to restrain ones own teammate yet that does not happen in all instances. In your example three players end up on the ground with ongoing VC.
Yes I dont see a problem with intervening by pushing players away or stepping in to calm things down yet there is a fine line here when strong physicality has to be used. In this example Taylor steps in to prevent the situation from escalating.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_O_KeUUCT68
When two player are engaged in serious VC it is extremely difficult not to get sucked in to this when trying to intervene and blows are being traded.
In respect of the Laws of the Game it does not speak to disciplinary matters after the game. The laws only require that the referee furnish a match report if what he saw. How that report is dealt with is a matter for the local league /association and its competition rules . At all levels there is always an appeal process and that is set out in the relevant rules. The standard FA sanction for VC is three games.
http://esports.flipboxapp.net/Discipline/html5/html5forwebkit.html?page=0
As regards decisions the applicable standard of proof is the balance of probability. The balance of probability standard means that it is satisfied an event occurred if it is considered that, on the evidence, the occurrence of the event was more likely than not. The only independent evidence is the referees report and if it is limited to one paragraph he simply wrote what he saw which may Witnessing three players on the ground wrestling. From what I see the only likely evidence to overturn this decision is video or the evidence of the referee on the adjacent pitch.
As regards who pays fines that is a matter for the club. Some clubs pay player fines whereas others ask the player to do so. If I was offering advice on fines here I would be asking the player that caused the fracas and who continued despite the intervention of his captain to pay or that the club take collective responsibility for it.

Answer provided by Referee Richard Dawson

Hi Peter,
you can always appeal a decision. No guarantee of anything except a loss of the admission fee as it usually cost something. I have been involve in in hundreds of disciplinary hearings no ban is made until the circumstances are made known. It does not matter why your captain got involved. I mentioned the perception of what one thinks, correct or no,t is made upon what they see. In your case without video there is likely no compelling neutral evidence to alter the decision. Writing a match report s is often a poor excuse in penmanship at times I grant you, seen some very vague an iffy descriptions. I can not say exactly how your GROUP in your association in your area handles such matters. I can say the referee as a neutral and supposedly unbiased observer unless he breaks the LOTG his opinion on facts of play reigns supreme. Is it fair? Perhaps not, if he has no integrity but I believe most of us do! I tend to think what is being taught is do not fight, because there are consequences that extend beyond the one blow that starts it!

AS a coach of a u-16 team I had my smallest player brutally assaulted with a harsh elbow to the head on the pitch with no intervention by the referee. My captain went nose to nose with the larger opponent who did it, they fought, he got 5 games . I thought it sucked which it did. It was not fair, that opponent should have been tossed for the attack on our small player, and we should have played 11 versus 10 he wasn't, but did receive the same 5 match ban for fighting as my captain because that was ALL the referee saw.
Life is not meant to be fair or unfair, it just is what it is!

I will say this I have seen only a few match bans fines lifted or altered all had video evidence or association officials responsible for discipline were in attendance of the actual match. These are separate from protests were an official erred in LOTG

Opinions are easy. I can assure you arriving at decisions that affect others is quite hard, If you assign blame perhaps, to your player who fought, get him to pay. If you as a team have funds then use them. We raised money doing garbage clean ups an hot dogs sales to pay for our fees when protesting or fighting decisions. In a couple of cases where we won or the association felt we were being unfairly treated our fees were returned Hey some times life is ok ! lol
Cheers