Question Number: 31049

Law 12 - Fouls and Misconduct 11/24/2016

RE: Rec Adult

russell of Sydney, Australia asks...

This question is a follow up to question 31043

Penalty or not follow up (re the Sporting v Madrid UCL match).

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x532lf4_fabio-coentrao-concedes-a-really-dumb-penalty-vs-sporting_sport

Thanks Refs McHugh and Dawson for your replies to my enquiry of 'can there be a situation when 'arms in un-natural position' do not come into play'.

Maybe, not as much response directly to the question, although Ref Dawson eludes to balance issues as possible situations where unnatural position calls might get waved off, so that is worth a consideration.

Ref Dawson provided the example of the Panama v Mexico match - wow, what a shambles that looked like being.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPxeFCYdQXk

What on earth was happening there regarding the lengthy time it took to take the penalty ?
The match crew were certainly utilising the 'time can be extended to allow for taking of a penalty...' !

Not knowing the language in the clip, I was at a loss to understand why it took so many minutes to get penalty taken. Sure, there was all the remonstrations from Panama, but even taking that into account, it was 5 mins or more.

(and for what it is worth, if it was me and I had a clear view of the event, I'd have awarded the penalty. While clearly trying to stop the attacker getting to the ball - which of course is fine in itself - the problem was in doing so he clearly ended up trapping the ball with his arm - which, as Ref Dawson mentioned - there is the element of intent present and used.
On top of that, for me, Torres was as guilty as can be. He appeared to not once complain to the CR. I just cannot believe you would not be in the face of the CR (like his fellow players were) if you believed you were innocent).

Answer provided by Referee Richard Dawson

Hi Russel,
those of us who have been at this game for a while, even if not at the top tier have come to understand that every match is a veritable beast unto itself just as they are all related in someway to a gentle lamb of innocence . I have too or at least I choose too believe that no referee with integrity looks for a way to irritate one team or the other, but it happens. Some will say bias, others incompetence, some will agree to disagree and move on, others will finger point and pound the crucifixion nails into body as if he be the devil himself. I can tell you at the elite level, some of the instability comes from too many chiefs telling the guy in the middle what they want to see cracked down upon or to be more flexible in how certain situations are handled. It is often a puzzle to watch competent officials suddenly lose themselves in the high pressure matches trying to referee in a fashion not solely of their choosing but a reflection of being asked to do certain things a certain way. When you lose the comfort zone it can be along night.
I can guarantee, well I can at least surmise the red card for the send off of the arm across the face was a direct result of the recent crack down of elbow to head injuries and the month long video movies, seminars, meetings and reviews of the need to get a better grip of this kind of violent conduct. Them boom the referee is 25 yards away or more (does the AR offer advice?) and the Panamanian attacker goes up an twirls with his free arm possibly catching the facial area of the Mexican defender. In what most of us I assume were thinking at best a caution, out comes the direct red and out of nothing the Panamanian team are down a player. Ok tough break, they think man that was harsh and there are other face slaps later that go uncalled but they amazingly carry play and are in the lead until the 88 h minute when the controversial PK was awarded. Now we can debate, instinctive or reactive or deliberate action by Torres when he falls on top of the ball but Mark is well positioned and close, as opposed to the 25 yard plus call earlier, so angle of view was not a concern, even though perhaps the interpretation was depending on ones viewpoint . You do not award a maybe penalty in the PA in the last minute of a supremely controversial match, between you and whatever deity you pray too you must be SURE and have the COURAGE to do what YOU believe is correct! What the RUB is, a just call can STILL look unfair because the effort and substance of the match was all Panama. Mexico did not deserve to even be on the same field yet they were presented with this last second gift courtesy of a flailing Torres. There was irony in that I think Torres was fouled in the lead up but it was not too egregious looking yet it created the opportunity that followed. The sad spectacle of the Panama Mexico match came at the expense of USA FIFA referee Mark Geiger, where he was, to put it bluntly, tossed under the bus, and held to the unenviable searing flame of being a despicable confederate within a football system filled with systemic corruption. I alluded to this pathetic rendering of lamb slaughter by the interview given of the president of CONCACAF Alfredo Hawit has claimed that referee Mark Geiger acknowledged making mistakes during the contentious Gold Cup semi-final between Mexico and Panama.

The most TASTELESS aspect of this was the ever supportive regional soccer body did not say WHAT those errors were!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So WERE THEY the two controversial decision that Mark is admitting were wrong??? Utter crap in blame peddling blame to go this route . If there is or was a BLATANT error, then have the cojones as a SOCCER ORGANIZATION committed to improving the standards for the world game step up to the plate say what and why this or that was wrong, so we LEARN something! Not engage in useless speculation and innuendo! This garbage reeks of politics and nothing more. It serves no one any good if CLEAR unambiguous directions are not being passed down in the light of becoming a better official all around rather than scapegoating a hard working one who may have had a beast served rare.

Mark was the first American to referee a knockout stage World Cup match! by which he was given a thumbs up there, does not seem to offset the thumbs down here though. They claim Mark "accepted that officiating errors had been made" and they "impacted the outcome," CONCACAF president Alfredo Hawit said in a statement, adding that "such human errors are part of the game."


We rarely criticize fellow officials on the pitch simply as a matter of respect and a clear understanding the view from the middle in real time is not comparable to armchair theatrics and a slow motion multi angle reverse button. Ostensibly we are seduced by the crushing impact of the spectacular to be biased and prejudicial in real time and if our opinions are repudiated or confirmed by post review we are often selective in how we think about things. We fill in blanks, add the missing pieces, see within the non existent to make our view fit with circumstances that we perceive as fair or unfair more than truly right or truly wrong. All I can say Russell is have fun, try to do your best and never be scared of admitting a mistake as we share experiences or staying true to a decision made with integrity and conviction because an honest referee sees what he sees, no matter others see it different..

http://www.espnfc.us/concacaf-gold-cup/story/2535944/gold-cup-ref-mexico-v-panama-admits-errors-concacaf

cheers

Answer provided by Referee Joe McHugh

Hi
It certainly was a messy one. Torres dives on the ball with little regard for what part of his body made contact with the ball. Perhaps one could argue that it was unintentional yet the dive on the ball was certainly deliberate which was always going to prevent further play of the ball by the attacker
As to the reason why it took so long for the kick to be taken was that Panama decided to walk off in protest at crowd misbehaviour by Mexican fans and also the penalty decision.
The Panamanian Football Federation was fined an undisclosed amount for team misconduct both on and off the field. Additionally, Panamanian player Jaime Penedo was suspended two matches for pushing the assistant referee following the conclusion of the match. . Fellow Panamanian player Luis Tejada was also sanctioned with a two-match ban, one match for the red card received in the match and an additional match for failing to leave the field in a timely manner following the sending off.
As referees we have all been there and we know how difficult it can be when decisions get questioned. I had a similar situation recently on the award of a corner kick that an equalising goal was scored from. Rarely if ever is it picked over in the fashion of the elite level with slow mos, freeze frame, multiple camera angles. The referee is seen to be clearly showing that Torres played the ball with his arm and that ITOOTR it was deliberate. Perhaps another official might not have seen it or seen it as not deliberate. Again with VAR technology would this decision be changed?
In the recent Ireland V New Zealand rugby game there was a try awarded by the TMO which is the equivalent of the VAR. Many felt that the ball was not grounded, that it was held up by an Irish players arm while others felt that it was not. The TMO gave the try and that is all that matters. I believe that without the TMO the referee would have given the try. What it does point to is that in questionable calls there is always going to be an opinion for and against. I know VAR will assist in the clear cut ones that are missed in the same way that goal line technology is assisting to decide goals or not. On the questionable ones we are still left with an opinion.