Question Number: 35276

Mechanics 12/9/2023

RE: Adult

Rod Senior of Fort Myers, FL United States asks...

Crystal Palace v Liverpool game 12/9/23

1. Penalty was awarded when Van Dyke brought down a Palace player in the box. Van Dyke got a yellow card. VAR spotted a foul against Liverpool prior to the penalty incident. VAR was upheld and the penalty was revoked. Should Van Dyke's yellow have been revoked? What if Van Dyke had received a red card - would that have been revoked and Van Dyke been allowed to come back on the pitch? What if Van Dyke had seriously injured the Palace player. What would the rule be on that?

2. Later in the game a VAR penalty was awarded to Palace 2 minutes late while the game was in full swing. What would be the rule if any goals, cards, manager cards, sending offs, or serious injuries had occured in that 2 minutes?

Answer provided by Referee Joe McHugh

Hi Rod
My understanding was that the caution was revoked as there was not a goal scoring opportunity due to the earlier foul on a Liverpool player.

Now that is not to be confused with cautions not being reviewed or overturned by VAR. IFAB does not want every caution in a game to be reviewed hence the no overturn policy except for certain situations.

Had Van Dyke received a red card that can be reviewed and the correct decision made.
However had the challenge been reckless or serious foul play the review does not change that decision so while the restart would be a free kick to Liverpool the caution for reckless or the dismissal for serious foul play still stands.
There is nothing new in that in that say a player is called offside yet there is a reckless or serious foul play challenge as part of the offside that card will still stand. Players have to held accountable for their actions when it endangers the safety of opponents, even when play has been halted or reversal decisions made. That though does not mean that errors cannot be corrected which was done here on review including the revoking of the card.

The VAR advice tells us that play should be halted when play gets to a neutral zone. IFAB does not want lengthy periods such as this to happen to avoid other significant events taking place and then being overturned. In this instance play had to be halted during play unlike most others where a restart is held up.
The recent VAR issues has caused all sorts of belt and braces outcomes and this may be one of the results. Be absolutely sure before the onfield review is probably the thinking. In other leagues it is not unusual for a referee to go with the original onfield decision after the onfield video review. A recent question has an example where the referee does not change his mind on a no penalty call after a video review onfield.
I also believe that it was reported that in the recent Fulham / Wolves game where the first penalty which was awarded that the referee is aledged to have said post match that if VAR had asked him to review it he would have overturned his original penalty decision? Obviously that is what is reported in the media so unsure of its veracity. So from what I see video reviews in the PL rarely stay with the on field decision which in my opinion is somewhat flawed as the match referee should be afforded the chance to look at doubtful decisions even if there is no change.

In this Liverpool incident I’m not sure why it took 2 minutes except perhaps that the lengthy VAR check review was taking place during that period? The Premier League does not favour holding up games for reviews yet there is a real risk of something happening in a lengthy period. Again if there is serious foul play or violent conduct in that period there is little the referee can do other than the incident stops the game and the matters can be dealt with at that time.

What should happen is that once the ball is cleared away to a neutral position the referee should stop the game, have the review and then decide the restart which could be a dropped ball. The PL does not like that approach hence I suspect the two minute wait here. I suppose if there was no penalty the game is not held up yet there is a real risk with that approach of something happening in a lengthy period. It is somewhat wasted time as well as in this case play is brought back for an incident two minutes previous. It gets added on which is now why we have those extraordinary added time minutes. I think this one went to 10 minutes?

Answer provided by Referee Richard Dawson

Hi Rod,
wow lots of what ifs here?
Players do silly things that are USB or violent or unsafe if it is worthy of rebuke chances are if noted it will be! You can not undo what has transpired, nor change a restart outcome but you can fix certain mistakes of misconduct gone previously unnoticed or on events that were not possible

Misconduct is generally not forgiven if it is reckless or violent even if the start of play is kicked back to a missed incident. However, f the caution was for DOGSO then yes that card is null and void as no DOGSO potential existed. Same if the caution was for breaking up attacking play with a careless foul as there was no attack possible then yes that card is null and void. The referee should rescind it on the FOP and let that player and team know .

The issue of DB restarts after a review stoppage is is one where no matter who had ball possession, if inside the PA, it is always to the defending keeper. A normal stoppage is preferred but the longer a match goes or if a restart occurs then we have issues.

Remember the Zidane headbutt? The French had already had a restart in-between, so the referee is stopping for the injury performance by the Italian player not just to card Zidane . That could have been an INDFK to Italy. Instead the uncontested DB restart which Italy gave back to the French as a matter of fair play could not prevent the red card send off for the VC despite the passing of time or the restart of play as this was NEW information the referee had not seen or made a decision on!

The idea that we must stop play and wait until a review is completed at times seems arduous when we like the fast paced frenzy of ongoing play. Yet we can not always predict what some one might do in behind play or how they might react when in theory no one else is around but a camera if it goes unchecked! The simple premise of LETS GET IT RIGHT is really ensuring decisions reflect the actual play and conduct of the two teams.


Cheers Merry Christmas