Question Number: 35641

Law 12 - Fouls and Misconduct 8/4/2024

RE: Men’s Saturday non league Adult

Lee of Bath, Uk asks...

Random question. If player A fouls player B clearly and you blow for the free kick, the two players legs are wrapped up and as player B gets up he stands/stamps on player A and is mouthing off about the tackle. As ref you say to player B’s manager that you want him subbed off for his backchat. You then go back and see that player A has a pretty bad looking injury, can I then as ref decide that it needs to be a red and not a forced substitute?

Answer provided by Referee Richard Dawson

HI Lee,
the referee as the neutral arbiter of justice, could perhaps suggest the player be substituted but have no authority to demand it. There certainly is no mandatory law that the manager must acquiesce but in this case it should not even be a consideration!

When TRYING to PREVENT issues at the grassroots or youth levels, sensing the player(s) on the FOP are running at yellow or red temper modes. I have in the interests of game management related independent verbal warnings to the coaches/managers /captains on their own players, thing like, "(#9 red and #5 blue are loosing their cool or running on high octane, you might want to think about giving him/them a rest or I might be forced to do it for you if he/they cannot reign in his/their anger!

I do not demand coaches/managers must substitute, just giving them a heads up not to wind up needlessly shorthanded. In fact high school and certain youth leagues have mandatory sit policies after a caution for just that reason. Unless perhaps local bylaws or ROC changes for a special tournament?? There are leagues that allow temporary dismissal (sin bin)

Just to reiterate the scenario!
Player A is the bad guy, he trip/fouls Player B.
Player B's team gets the free kick!
Player A is not cautioned or is he? (Perhaps should have been?)
Player B is upset at the handiwork of Player A for the foul.
Player B upon rising is standing on the opponent & or stomps Player A?
You REALLY need to get to that spot and deal with this!
Player B is perhaps yelling at you for NOT cautioning/sending off Player A?

You as referee are suggesting the manager of team B substitutes the angry B player? Super bad idea! Hoping to managing the game & avoid issuing a card to the either player?

You blew for a DFK! Player Bs team is going to get the restart!
You chose NOT to caution Player A for the foul as it was careless, not reckless or excessive? By doing nothing other than stop play to award the free kick , you conveyed that challenge, although unfair, was not card worthy!

Player B responds poorly to the tackle and DELIBERATELY stomps/walks on Player A.
OK HUGE RED FLAG because that stomp is VC all by itself! One MIGHT accept as a player picks themselves off the deck a wobbly step on as accidental or possible reckless thus only caution but given your version, Player B is most likely yelling at you for not carding Player A still mad at the takedown and thought to get a bit of payback in. .

Now whether your decision to not card Player A was good or bad Player B MUST be sanctioned for the retaliation, no ifs or buts. YOU blew the whistle which means you SAW the event, so Player B has no reason to retaliate. It appears you were more interested in not sanctioning the improper behaviours? Hoping to manage the players with a, lets just forget this and move on. Obviously if you are engaging the manager, you are not engaging Players A & B at the point of the contact?

I can advise that in cases where players are entangled and one or the other brings their opposition down in a hard interlocked tackled a referee is wise, if advantage is a possibility, to verbally suggest you are well aware of who is at fault, this advises your ARs 4th but it is also to appease the retribution potential. If there is no advantage likely to occur then quickly hammer the whistle and get to the spot of the foul ASAP using your presence and body language to control the situation. If the fact you are there, eye contact, presenting a firm, it was a free kick nothing more event, -MIGHT- stop the foolishness, then again players must understand there is a consequence to any actions or choices taken.

Up until the restart of play the referee can alter or change a decision. If you say or do one thing, then change and do another such changes are rarely received well and you can expect some reasonable dissent. In this case I am of the opinion, in point of fact I was always of this opinion even before you stated there was visible injury marks that made you think it!. Anytime players entangle either can get hurt be it, accidental or deliberate, is a judgement call, however, I am assuming of course the STOMP cleats are what was showing?
Player B should be shown the red card for VC!, sent off, his team reduced by a player! Then Team B proceeds with the free kick player B had won before he started all the foolishness! !
Cheers

Answer provided by Referee Jason Wright

Hi Lee,

There are a few things I'd like to talk about here. First, you said that Player B stamps/stands on the attacker. Those are very different things - stamps implies malice and force, and this is going to be an easy red card for violent conduct every time. Standing on a player could warrant a card - or it could also be an unfortunate outcome of the players being tangled up and not need any card. If, for instance, Player B is taking a small step backwards and happens to stand on the opponent, no problem. Sometimes it's not quite clear though - a player might do it in a way that appears accidental but is very deliberate. So we look at other cues in the body language.

For instance, if the player stands on the opponent and doesn't immediately move off, or isn't appearing off-balance, this tells us it's probably an act of violence. And especially when that player is mouthing off - I'd honest want it to be quite clear that it's accidental, otherwise that compined with the stand is telling me it was almost certainly an act of violence. Basically, unless it's a clear accident and probably unavoidable, the player is going to be responsible for their actions. If it looks like they could have avoided it, the combined with the mouthing off, tells me it's violence. Especially when we consider this player had just been fouled - everything about his manner is suggesting this would have been violent.

I'm actually a little more concerned about you asking the player to be subbed off. Why is that your response to the player's backchat? As a referee we have tools at our disposal - a quick 'that's enough, thank you'. Or we can pull the player aside and have a firm word with them (sometimes the captain might come over to hear what it's about - I'd allow it as long as he isn't arguing, but nobody else). Or, we use our yellow or red cards.

Some referees might like to suggest a player be subbed off if they're approaching a card as their mood is escalating and they need a few minutes to cool off. That might have its place in youth football or maybe low level adults, but this should be on rare occasions only, if that. It should never replace any of your other actions.

Even if we accpt the stomp was a stamp and a completely unavoidable accident, when you have 1 player standing over the top of another mouthing off at them, you have to take action. As to whether a card is needed would depend on the player's body language and what they said (and how they said it), but this is a situation that has quickly escalated and you need to deal with it.

There is no such thing as a forced substitution - where did you get the idea that this is a thing?

Answer provided by Referee Joe McHugh

Hi Lee
Thanks for the question.

In Law there are only three disciplinary options available to a referee which are a temporary dismissal (sin bin), a caution or a dismissal. A referees has no powers to request a substitution of a player. A referee could advise a player and his manager that the player’s playing conduct needs to change or that a player seems concussed and may need treatment. If a manager decides to take action through a substitution then that is the team’s decision not something that can be mandated by a referee particularly after the event.

As Referee Wright points out there has been instances in Underage and Grassroots where some referees have used the substitution request to deal with certain exceptional situations. That should rarely be used and only in situations where there is no real competition at stake such as a friendly or a dead rubber where the result is irrelevant. It’s general use is to head off something happening not as a tool to deal with an incident after it happened.

As to this instance it bring to mind a situation in a Premier League game involving a challenge. It was a bad challenge and Referee Mike Dean came running to the location having already pulled out a yellow card from his shorts pocket. When he got to the location he saw the extent of the injury and he put away the yellow card and produced a red card. Either the other officials on the comms convinced him of a dismissal or the injury itself showed it was a serious foul play.

In your example there are a few considerations at play here. First off referees are not detectives and the first viewing is what a decision should be based on.
When these situations happen a referee should be on high alert when players are tangled on the ground. Referees need to also listen to what is going on. The confrontation here must have included the stomp which should not be missed.
Yes if a challenge is a toss up between yellow and red the extent of the injury may swing the call immediately. In this instance the team has already been told it is not a red card so a change will undermine credibility.
Second point is that play has not restarted so a referee can change any decision. So a red card can be shown here yet it will draw greater ire than had the immediate call been made. It might even look like the opponents swayed the decision verbally plus perhaps no action taken on Player A.
Third point is that the participants expect sanction for a reckless or serious foul play challenge or violent conduct not a substitution. Players have responsibility to the team which includes not getting sent off. Imagine as well the reaction of the injured player when the offender only gets substituted and his team does not play short.

So my advice is to stick to the Laws and deal with situations as required using the options available within Law12. All referees have been in situations where they went with yellow yet regretted not using red for a particular situation. That happens. I have one regret over a lifetime of not sending off a player for serious foul play going with yellow instead. It annoyed me after the game when I thought about it yet early in my career as a referee it made me resolve not to be soft on SFP type challenges going forward.