Question Number: 16091

Kicks From The Penalty mark 7/23/2007

sonny of san francisco, usa asks...

This question is a follow up to question 14004

Must disagree with you panel about reduce to equate when player injured or sent off between end of game and first KFTPM. [14004]

1) I asked Jim Allen at USSF about this and he states team would start KFTPM short handed.

Reference: JA is the official voice of USSF - I don't know who the other ref quoted in askthe ref are - Possibly just refs like the rest of us. In any case they should read the USSF ATR (if they are USSF refs) - Let me quote

3.12 ... The kicks from the penalty mark phase of the match begins at the moment regulation play ends (including any overtime periods)....

and 19.1 ... Once kicks from the penalty mark have begun, there is no further application of the''reduce to equate'' principle. If a player must leave through injury or misconduct, that player may not be replaced and the opposing team does not have to reduce its numbers....

Later on in 3.12 it states "Under no circumstances will a team be required to ''reduce to equate'' if the opposing team loses one or more players due to injury or misconduct occurring during the kicks phase of the match."

The start of the Kicks phase was defined earlier ( moment regulation play ends)

'exception' would be as JA stated -ref decided to send off player before whistle was actually blown.

So reduce to equate applies to number of players at end of game and since the KFTPM phase begins at moment of final whistle ---not much more to say.

Answer provided by Referee Chuck Fleischer

The assumption I made when answering the original question was the player was in that condition when the match ended and it was determined he could not continue because of the injury sustained during the match. Should the player's injury be discovered subsequent to the sides being equal there would be no further reductions. I understand Mr. Allen's credentials and we saw the need to request his clarification on 1 October 2006 and did. Further, we have asked again and in this situation, the injury present at the end of time and not happening afterwards, is reduce to equate is proper.

Regards,

Answer provided by Referee Gary Voshol

The reason that reduce-to-equate doesn't apply after the kicks have started is because it could lead to scenarios difficult or impossible to resolve:

(1) Suppose all 11 players from A have taken their kicks, and now the 11th player from B comes to the mark. He doesn't think you should have allowed that last shot that put A up 8-7, and begins to argue with you. You warn him, caution him, but he only gets himself more inflamed and finally you send him off for abusive language. So now you have to reduce A? But how will you do that? Their last player made his shot. Will you take away that success because of the rantings of the other team?
(2) Or 10 from each team have gone, and the score remains tied. The 11th from A steps up to the mark, and trips in a previously undiscovered gopher hole, spraining her ankle. The only player from B who hasn't yet taken a kick is the goalkeeper. Are you going to reduce her out?

Unfortunately we have two slightly contradictory bullet points which occur immediately after each other in the Laws of the Game (2007-8), regarding the timing of the reduce-to-equate principle:

* When a team finishes the match with a greater number of players
than their opponents, they shall reduce their numbers to equate
with that of their opponents and inform the referee of the name
and number of each player excluded. The team captain has this
responsibility.
* Before the start of kicks from the penalty mark the referee shall
ensure that only an equal number of players from each team
remain within the centre circle and they shall take the kicks.

The first bullet says "finishes the match", the second "before the start of kicks". If "before the start" literally means "at the finish of the match", reading those two points together would mean that only those players who happened to be in the center circle as the referee whistled for time would be eligible - presumably excluding both goalkeepers from taking part - and that the referee would have to ensure that he did not whistle until there was an equal number of players in the circle! (And what if he whistled while no one was there?) Clearly that is not the intent of these statements.

At the back of the book, in the section which is replacing the Q&A, we find this bullet point:

* If a player is injured or sent off during the taking of kicks from the
penalty marks and the team has one player less, the referee should
not reduce the number of players taking kicks for the other team.
An equal number of players from each team is required only at the
start of the taking of kicks from the penalty mark.

This confirms that once kicks have started, there is no reduction. It has a 3rd wording, "at the start" - but does that mean the time of the first kick, or the time of the final whistle?

The ending whistle is what defines the beginning of the kicks phase. If at that time you have a player who was injured and was off the field seeking treatment, the referee should allow that player to be excused from KFTPM, and allow the opponents to reduce their numbers accordingly. Q#14004 blurs that line somewhat in that the player does not report his injury until after the whistle has blown. The referee should use his discretion to determine whether or not the injury happened before or after the whistle, and reduce or not reduce accordingly.

Answer provided by Referee Keith Contarino

Jim, of course, is correct, but did you ask him the right question? I'm willing to bet you asked him if a player was injured AFTER extended time but before the actual Kicks started, would they play short? The answer, of course, is yes they would. But that's NOT what 14004 asks as the way I read it. The player now informs the referee he is injured but I read this to mean he was injured BEFORE the whistle but is now informing the referee. If he had been injured after I think the poster would have said so. I think it imperative we know when the injury occurred. I have asked Mr Allen to clarify and we will post his response.

Sonny. I stand by 14004 until I have heard directly from Mr Allen. I have read, re-read, and read ATR again and again. What you state is true but we are looking at 14004 differently. I read 14004 as saying the player injured himseld BEFORE the whistle ending extended time but the referee didn't know this until AFTER the whistle. Thus, the injury did NOT occur during the kicks phase so they reduce to equate. I could be wrong about this. If the injury occured AFTER the whistle, say the player twisted his ankle then they play short unless it's the keeper in which case he may be substituted for. Since the game had ended, if he injured himself before the kicks phase, still can't be substituted for because now the game is over.

Answer provided by Referee Richard Dawson

Hi Sonny,
it is ok to agree to disagree. In my opinion I find the reduce to equate occurs when the referee and captains meet to discuss after the whistle about what to do. I believe a referee can accept that events during a match render a player unable to participate at KFTPM.

I can see if a player tripped on his run up and turned an ankle as clearly something that happened AFTER the match ended. Same again for a dissent or abuse situation because one team feels like orchastrating some funnies ! However, I believe 100% a referee has the right and duty to reduce to equate in law based on his acceptance of the condition and playing status of those on the field at the end of the match while they gather at centre circle!

The key element in my opinion is does a referee have discretion after ending a match of determining that the legal players on the field can have a legitimate reason not to participate in kftpm and is the opposition obligated to have players that may well looking forward to being part of the circle excluded from it because the opponents lay claim to have additional personal so injured as to be unable to participate?

I agree 100% the indeterminate time after a blown whistle and a gathering of the players at centre circle to hash out who goes if the sides ended in uneven numbers or whether we can adjust an even amount of players into a new uneven amount and not be required to reduce to equate is questionable in practice if not against the laws as they now stand.

I do take exception though at the 11 aside issue "If both teams finish with 11, there is no reduction." If a referee determines an injury or send off event was an incident near the end of play with only the outcome being clear after the match has ended why is it not permissible to reduce to equate based on knowledge before a match ended?

Here are some obscure examples of reduce to equate where both teams finished with 11 at the whistle but the teams were reduced to 10 aside at the taking of the KFTPM .

Hot Hot day, game ends players are exhausted and cramping one player vomits and falls unconscious after the final whistle. Obviously he can not participate in the KFTPM BUT is the other team FORCED to reduce to equate or is it not considered at all?

A collision, advantage played, shot on goal stopped, match ended. In collision defender dislocated ankle. Obviously he can not effectively participate in the KFTPM BUT is the other team FORCED to reduce to equate or is it not considered at all?

Player # 3 receives a second caution but is not sent off. Match ends AR points out to referee #3 has two cautions he can or can not participate in the KFTPM? Obviously he should not participate in the KFTPM BUT is the other team FORCED to reduce to equate or is it not considered at all?

Team playing, substitute limit reached! A player is injured near the end of the match but receives treatment and knowing no one can replace tries to hobble about the final minute. A referee can see his right foot is favored. When the match ends he tells his captain and referee that it I am done. Obviously he can not participate effectively in the KFTPM BUT is the other team FORCED to reduce to equate or is it not considered at all?

If a match ends and the KFTPM now begin at that moment then although the talk about who goes will not yet take place consider the folowing
Match ends in a flurry of action with 11 blue players versus 9 red players aside but after whistle sounded to end the match immediately an altercation breaks out between blue and red. The action is so severe that two blue and 1 red player are sent off before the KFTPM while the players were still on the field but after the match ended but before the players were grouped in the circle and the captain of blue had said to referee which two players were not going to participate. Obviously the sent off players can not participate in the KFTPM BUT red was already short two players and blue was going to be requested to reduce to equate now will blue still be reduced by two as they were 11 versus 9 at the final whistle so in reality blue has 7 players to take the kicks and red has 8?

Cheers

Answer provided by Referee MrRef

There has been a discussion traveling around the Internet concerning possible incorrect advice offered by our question number 14004 of 1 October 2006. We have taken the time to verify what we said, after consulting US Soccer, nearly a year ago. Because this question deals with a particular phase of the match in which the referee needs to choose a goal where KFTPM will be taken and reduce to equate, if necessary there is a period of time when reasonable action may be taken. We have always believed KFTPM have NOT yet begun when the full time whistle sounds. We have always questioned the statement KFTPM begin when the final whistle sounds. It has been our contention that the match has entered another phase and that phase is KFTPM. Further we have believed, and still believe, I might add, that until the first kick is taken the instructions given by FIFA and US Soccer are sufficiently nebulous that the referee may make an educated decision based on what he discovers in the period of time from the full time whistle until the first kick.

There has been no error made in the advice given. The advice given is essentially a statement of US Soccer policy and, though it comes from an unofficial source, it was then and remains today correct as stated. Those still believing KFTPM begin at the full time whistle need only read the Laws of the Game and see there can be no reduce to equate after KFTPM begin. It has been and remains our contention that this is a Catch 22. We are told to do something that is impossible to do under the Laws of the Game. To successfully reduce to equate there must be some period of time in which it?s done. That period of time is between the end of the match and the first kick.

Answer provided by Referee MrRef

30 July 2007. Following discussions at the highest levels of US Soccer it has been determined by Alfred Kleinaitis, Manager of Referee Development and Education, the fact a player has been injured during a competition and is unable to carry on during kicks from the penalty mark does not enter into reduce to equate. The injured player may leave the field so his injury may be tended to but the kicks from the mark will proceed with an unequal number of players. Ed.

The following questions were asked as a follow up to the above question...

See Question: 16144